Al Del Degan Hosts Danielle BarkerListen to episode 147 here: Podcast
[00:00:00] Al Del Degan: Hey everybody. Welcome to the show. I'm really excited today to have one of my colleagues. Danielle Barker is here and Danielle is one of the valued and favorites of the learners that inceptionU. She's helping us with, the, facilitation of the inceptionU program. but she was also a learner in the program in the previous cohort. Danielle, thanks so much for being here. [00:00:23] Danielle Barker: Ya, thanks [00:00:24] Al Del Degan: We talked briefly, one day about your past, and I thought you had this incredibly fascinating story that I think people would really enjoy hearing. So why don't you tell us a little bit about where you came from and how your life has gotten you to where you are today. [00:00:40] Danielle Barker: So it's a really long story, butI'll tell a short version and you can ask more questions based on that, I guess. Yeah. So I started to get an interest in software development in, actually in high school in grade 11, they had,one of the options that we were allowed to take was, software development. So we learned to visual basic and C plus plus, I really loved it. this might be something I want to do for a living. Yeah. So I went to a university for a year and really struggled and I had to work at the same time. So I wasn't able to, you know, keep up with my studies and didn't do very well. I kind of gave up on that dream. I thought that was the only way to get in is to just, is to get a degree, otherwise I have to do something else. So yeah, I, ended up just having jobs, like customer service jobs, and I was a school bus driver, warehouse job here and there. And eventually I ended up, Being unemployed for a while, five years, I was unemployed for a, I was just on, on welfare and, I got called it to the welfare office and they said, we can't keep you on welfare forever. You're going to have to get a job. And like, if you need help getting a job, there's resources and they said, you either have to get a job within the next three months, or you can take this, employment program. So it was like, employability skills. program through Alberta works. I ended up going to that and that's where I learned about InceptionU . And, yeah, so I thought it was a really cool program sounded cool. And I decided, yeah, I want to take the leap and try by best and do what I can and it ended up turning out really great for me. That's how I ended up where I am today. [00:02:22] Al Del Degan: Now you had mentioned to me that not only were you on welfare, but you actually spent a little bit of time homeless, correct? [00:02:28] Danielle Barker: Yeah. So I lost my, my job as a school bus driver. That was my last job I had. Kind of just a bunch of other bad things happened at the same time and just kind of hit this point where I just wanted to give up, so I didn't want to go find another job. So I just ended up, taking what money I had and buying a van, and I just lived in the van for six months. [00:02:52] Al Del Degan: That must've been, quite a struggle. [00:02:54] Danielle Barker: It was at times ya, there's not a lot of places that let you park a van and sleep at night. And so, you know, like they'd wake you up in middle of the night, Hey, you gotta move. You can't be here. There was some times where I forgot where I parked and ended up having to sleep on the street I'm terrible with directions. I get lost very easily, so I thought someone stole my van. I was just like, guess I'm on the street now. [00:03:24] Al Del Degan: I guess there must've been a little tiny piece of that, that was very free though?. [00:03:30] Danielle Barker: Yeah, there definitely was parts of it, of the experience that I enjoyed. Like I took the van and I actually went across BC. So I drove to Nelson was the first place I stayed. Nelson's really nice. I went to Vancouver. And then I stayed in Victoria for quite a while and I got to go and be on the beach every day and sleep by the beach. Yeah. So there was some nice parts to it, for sure. [00:03:57] Al Del Degan: I'm guessing you're back in Calgary now when you're,living on welfare and did they provide, any sort of housing or anything? [00:04:04] Danielle Barker: They don't provide housing, but they, they give you like, they give you $350 a month, and you can use that towards rent. Yeah. So I found a place that was $350 for rent. [00:04:18] Al Del Degan: You can't eat, but at least you have a roof over your head. [00:04:21] Danielle Barker: They give you, they give you some other money too. It's maybe three 50 for rent and then 400 for everything else. So it wasn't I wasn't living the high life, but I had my basic needs. [00:04:35] Al Del Degan: The other interesting thing, is that you had mentioned to me that you were also on the autism spectrum, what's that been like on top of all this other stuff? [00:04:43] Danielle Barker: Yeah so for me, that comes through mostly with, having sensory sensitivities also, especially when I was younger with social, social norms, like understanding them and following them. Yeah. So I struggled with like making friends and socializing with people and knowing what to do in social situations. And so that was a struggle to kind of learn. Stuff that comes naturally to most people. Yeah. And then like this, the sensory things like being sensitive to certain textures sounds sensitivity to bright light, that kind of thing. So yeah, it, it definitely adds some extra struggle on top of the regular stuff. [00:05:29] Al Del Degan: It's amazing how resilient you've been. Like from, where you've come to where you are now, you know, I'm sure that some of the InceptionU, learners past and present are probably going to listen to this episode. And I mean, they all love you. Like, you're such a huge favorite with all the learners and with all the staff at InceptionU, I know Margo. She, she adores you and doesn't want you to go anywhere. She wants you to stay around forever. you know, you've really come full circle back into. you know what you could clearly qualify as success. You've made a success out of your life coming from, literally nothing to, where you are today, that's an amazing accomplishment. [00:06:12] Danielle Barker: Yeah, it feels like I've found my place in the world, I guess, [00:06:17] Al Del Degan: You've found your fit. And so now, you are, like myself, you have a part-time contract with InceptionU, and you're doing, an amazing job with facilitation. You've been actually teaching some classes and for someone who's, you know, been very shy and introverted, what's it been like actually teaching classes? [00:06:37] Danielle Barker: Yeah, the, the very first one, I was so nervous. I was like shaking and just, yeah, I had to keep notes on like every single sentence that I was going to say to remember it all. And it was very nerve wracking, but it just got more and more comfortable every session after that. And now it's like, I still get nervous leading up to it, but then once I'm there, it's just about like having conversation with people. [00:07:02] Al Del Degan: And you're in your element because you're talking about, software development topics, right? So it's kind of like it's your gig, it's your fun. And the other thing too is now, hopefully I don't get this wrong, but you're also a Scrabble champion of sorts. Can you tell us it's a bit about that? [00:07:20] Danielle Barker: Yeah, so I played Scrabble competitively. I'm a member of a scrapple organization, North American Scrabble Organization. The club gets together twice a week to play scrabble. So when I didn't, back when I didn't have job, that's what I was. That's what I spent my time doing is studying Scrabble, playing Scrabble. I would play on average, three games a day, every day. Yeah, one of the things, one of the common autistic traits is, having, special interests or like kind of like a hyper-focus on and only do one thing. That's the only thing you care about. I don't know if it, if it got to like, like a bad point or anything, or like, I wasn't doing things I needed to in my life because I was playing Scrabble. But like, yeah. It's was, yeah, I've been like, I've been playing, probably about three times a week since I was like six. Yeah. So I just started like, I was always afraid to, to go to the like Scrabble clubs or like join tournaments and stuff. and then, you know, I was, I was like, really down point in my life, I was just like, I gotta do something rather than just sit at home all day, doing nothing. If I don't have a job, I might as well do something, take a risk and see, see what comes of it. So I went to my first,Scrabble club. It was in 2018. Yeah. I went and showed up and I was like, Hey, I'm here to play Scrabble. And that's when I started like, learning like the, the ways that the pro's study. It's totally different from how like a regular person might think to study Scrabble. Yeah. Just like you said, you, you said I was a Scrabble champion. Well, I haven't won like a national championship or anything like that. I'm not better than everyone in North America, but I have won in my division. Several times. [00:09:15] Al Del Degan: Well, I think that qualifies maybe, the word champion itself is maybe not exactly right, but like serious competitor at the very least right? Like you'd probably kick all our butts any day of the week right? [00:09:30] Danielle Barker: Yeah, anybody who doesn't play competitively, I probably easily just because, like I said, like the study, the way that, the way you study, it really impacts and the strategy there's like, it's not just playing the highest scoring words. That's not the strategy. There's so much more it's so much deeper than that. And so willing to learn all that and the regular like kitchen table, Scrabble players struggle to keep up. [00:09:58] Al Del Degan: So did you ever see the, television mini series? The Queen's gambit? The one about the chess I would imagine. And maybe after you watch it, you can let me know what you think, but I imagine it's kind of on those lines or cause it's competitive, like high-end competitive chess. but yeah, it'd be, it'd be fascinating to know if it's anything like that. [00:10:18] Danielle Barker: There's quite a big crossover actually, between the chess world and the scrabble world, like people that play in both. Yeah. It's interesting to like, you'll see a mix. There's lots of chess players who play Scrabble. There's lots of Scrabble players who there's actually quite a few Scrabble players who have been on Jeopardy. It's like, it's, it's weird. There's like, if you're good at chess, you're good at memorizing things and logic stuff. [00:10:45] Al Del Degan: Looking for patterns and thinking of strategies and stuff, oh, that's fascinating. When you graduated from, the InceptionU program, you did, obviously come back and start working for InceptionU as well, but you got some gigs off the ground, right? Like, freelance consulting gigs right away, didn't you? [00:11:02] Danielle Barker: It's been interesting. It was, what was the first jobs I got was I was working on WordPress. I'd never worked on WordPress before. I had no idea how to do anything in WordPress. And they were like, yeah, can you do, can you like fix this problem? I'm like, Al?, like I had that like beginner developer feeling your again where it's like, oh, I don't know anything. Why are they trusting me to do this? [00:11:32] Al Del Degan: But you broke the problems down into little pieces and figured it out and asked for help where you needed to, and then you're off sailing. Right. What are some of your plans for the future [00:11:41] Danielle Barker: Plans for the future? Yeah. I haven't really got there yet. Haven't really thought too far into the future. Kind of liking how things are now and ya, I don't know. [00:11:53] Al Del Degan: That's totally okay. I mean, living for the moment and, being able to pay your bills, doing stuff that you love doing. That's, that's an achievement of success right there. So, so that's brilliant. So I guess more the same really, I guess eh? [00:12:05] Danielle Barker: Ya, now like, I wanna buy a house. That's the one that's really all I've thought about is, Hey, I might be able to buy a house now. This is the first time that I've like, lived on my own, like without roommates or anything. [00:12:18] Al Del Degan: Well, that's you're, such a fascinating person, and every time I hear you telling one of the stories of, what you've been through and, what you do and these things just kind of pop up and it's like, what?, like really? Holy moly. I just thought it would be really, really cool to have you on the podcast and, you know, let people know, what you've been through, because I think, when people take, a pivoting their career type program like InceptionU, there's a lot of imposter syndrome and there's a lot of wondering, if they can get through it and then be able to get a job and that kind of thing and I think you're really, a shining beacon to people that you can kind of do anything if you, if you really just decide to do it. Right. you're definitely accomplished in a lot of different things and you've been through, a whole lot of crap too, so, I imagine you're probably inspiring to a lot of people and, I really appreciate that you took the time to be on the episode with me today and to be open in sharing the, the crazy life you've had so far, and,I really enjoy working with you at InceptionU, and I know everybody else does. And, and I see great things for you in the future. So I just want to have you on the show and, and let the world know what an awesome person you are. [00:13:29] Danielle Barker: Oh thanks, I appreciate that, I enjoy working with you as well. [00:13:33] Al Del Degan: Well, thanks everybody. I hope you enjoyed the episode. if you want to get ahold of Danielle, she's with InceptionU right now, and we'll share her LinkedIn profile in the show notes like we do with, all of our guests, and, tune in next week, same time, same channel, for the next episode of the Leaders, Innovators, and Big Ideas podcast.
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Peter Beaudoin Hosts Liz NilsenListen to episode 145 here: https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-nrdad-113979b
[00:00:00] Peter Beaudoin: So thanks Al. Hi, my name is Peter Beaudoin and I'll be your host of today's rainforest podcast. Today's guest is Liz Nilsen. She's the associate director of the agile strategy lab at the university of north Alabama. Liz and her team have just completed a project across the Alberta innovation ecosystem, which we'll talk about and explore today. So firstly, welcome Liz. [00:00:20] Liz Nilsen: Thanks. Great to be here. Thanks for having me. [00:00:22] Peter Beaudoin: So can you tell us a little bit about the university's Agile Strategy Lab and the Strategic Doing Program that you guys do? [00:00:29] Liz Nilsen: Sure, why don't I start with, do it the other way around and start with Strategic Doing then talk a little bit about the lab. So Strategic Doing has been around a lot longer than the lab, so developed about 25 years ago, and I know we'll talk more about what it is, but then about 15 years ago, maybe, our director Ed Morrison decided that what he really wanted to do to scale that up was to learn, to teach it and teach it more broadly than he'd been able to do solo. And so then he went to work at a university, a different university, with the intention of learning, how to teach it, thought that would take a couple of years. It actually has taken a lot more than and so we established an agile strategy lab a couple of years ago, five years ago, maybe. And then in January of 2020, we moved the lab to the university of north Alabama, which is in the very Northwest corner of the state on the Tennessee river. [00:01:16] Peter Beaudoin: Okay, that's great. So let's, let's explore what is Strategic Doing now, because I guess that's a component. So can you tell us a little bit about what is the program? What is Strategic Doing. [00:01:25] Liz Nilsen: So Strategic Doing is a group process or discipline, or you could use just about any of those nouns. it's a process for groups, particularly groups that are in what we call a loosely connected open networks to work together effectively. And what I mean by that is there, isn't a person kind of on top who can say, this is what you need to do. And there's, so there's a sense of voluntary-ness that people come in and out of the network as, as circumstances warrant. and usually they aren't all in one organization or at least they're in different units of an organization. And when you're in that kind of situations, the kind of standard approaches to strategy don't work, all that well, you know, strategic planning was really designed for our hierarchy. kind of situation, but when you're working in a loosely connected network, that approach isn't really appropriate. So strategic doing a specifically designed for that kind of situation, to give groups a way to interact and conduct their conversations that helps them form effective collaborations, quickly focus on some strategic outcomes. And then, this is key, start into action immediately. With a understanding that as the group starts to learn more about whatever the challenge is they're focused on, that they'll be able to pivot and adjust accordingly. [00:02:45] Peter Beaudoin: So you guys have been doing this for quite a while, right? I mean the Strategic Doing program, as you said, you've been growing it teaching it. So can you give us an example of where a Strategic Doing program was used and how it fundamentally transformed a city or region? [00:02:59] Liz Nilsen: We've worked in lots of different regions? So let me tell you about two of them. so the first is in our home backyard. So the university is in, what's called the Shoals area of Alabama, which is best known for music, actually Aretha Franklin and Rolling Stones and all those other people recorded there. and also agriculture it's in a pretty rural part of this. and it's a university that traditionally was a teacher's college. That's how it was founded. but now has a much more comprehensive program. And what they really wanted to tackle was they had, they were graduating lots of great students. [00:03:28] Liz Nilsen: And the students said, we love this community where we've gone to school and there are no jobs here, we can't stay. And so what the university was really focused on was how do we transform the economy of this region so that the students that were graduating, the best talent that we've really got in this region because most students come from pretty close, that the best talent we have here can stay here and flourish and help our economy flourish. so they started their work about seven years ago, it continues to grow. But I'd say at this point, you know, Florence, Alabama, which is kind of the seat of the, is the town for the university. It's really a different place than it was seven years ago. It really does have the feel of it kind of an up and coming town with lots of really interesting things going on. [00:04:07] Liz Nilsen: And an increasing number of students are choosing to stay put and start new businesses and, or have remote businesses where they can stay because the quality of life is great. You know, it's taken them a while, but they've really gotten traction and are continuing to move. And it's really changed the character of that community. So that's one, and that's as kind of a small rural town, which is one kind of community, right? So the other one is Milwaukee, Wisconsin, which obviously is a much bigger place. And Milwaukee is traditionally known as the beer city. That's kind of how they sort of, made their, made their mark in terms of what people think of it. But that's not so much. They still brew some beer, but that's not the core of their economy anymore. and, what they did was they, they brought a group together using Strategic Doing and said, you know, what could we do with the assets that we have at our disposal? Because that's the question that we always start with in Strategic Doing and the assets that they had were assets that really did come out of their beer heritage because they were water assets. They were all assets around water technology, and obviously water is the key thing. You need to make a beer. Right. and so they actually established what originally was called the Milwaukee water council, an incubator for water based businesses. they set up some coworking spaces for people who were working in that area. there was a cold water company in a warm water company that got together and said, you know, we're willing to give lab space to whoever wants that. no matter what they're working on. and they now have a global water council. So no matter where you are in the world, you probably in some way have interacted with the water council there. So that's, that's kind of a big city example. [00:05:43] Peter Beaudoin: Yeah. And, and I want to explore that a bit because when I look at the Strategic Doing, and I had gone through the program, so I have a little bit of an understanding, but if I look at Strategic Doing, it's a methodology to transform sort of how the ecosystem players collaborate. Right. But the program itself is really designed to take people through a process where. They collaborate on projects. And so can you just describe a little bit more about that, that actual process of Strategic Doing? [00:06:08] Liz Nilsen: Sure, so let me go back to the Milwaukee example. So, that group, the very first time they got together, you know, it was very open, you know, they didn't know what was going to come out of that conversation. They just knew they wanted to sort of explore this space of, you know, we have a lot of things going on in water. What could. and in that process, you asked four questions in Strategic Doing. So the first question is what could we do? So what could we do with the assets we already have at our disposal? We try to get rid of those questions that say, oh, if only we had a million dollars, oh, if only we had, you know, a bunch more people, what can we do with what we already have? That's the first question. The second question is what should we do? There's always more things to do than we can. So what's the strategic place to start? the third question is what will we do, which is where the rubber kind of hits the road. You know, what commitments are we going to make to each other about taking action to move forward on that should. And then the last question is what's our 30 30, which is our shorthand for when are we going to get back together? Talk about what happened when we did those commitments that we made to each other. Usually in the last 30 days, Decide whether or not we need to change our, our path at all. And they make plans for the next 30 days. So those are the four questions. So in Milwaukee, they started with this idea of, well, you know, what could we do? [00:07:22] Liz Nilsen: What do we have? And so, you know, they, all these, they invited lots of people. So all these different water assets started to kind of, you know, it's like, here's all the things that not right. And then it was, well, what, what, what could we do with those and rearrange them in interesting ways and this person with the hot water lab person with the cold water lab happened to be sitting next to each other. And they said, well, we could, is there something we could do with these two things and what they decided the opportunity was was, well, we could, we have extra, you know, at least time capacity in those labs, we could make that available to people who aren't our employees. So that was the idea they started with that became their kind of, you know, they did a pilot project or like, let's try it out. Let's see what's going to work, was successful. And over time they kept meeting the group, kept meeting together every 30 days. And at some point I'm not sure how long down the road they said that was very successful. How about a whole building that does that kind of thing? And it became a very large thing. Now, if you go to Milwaukee and you go to the water council, it's this lovely, large building with lots of space, for, you know, labs and coworking and all kinds of other things. But they started with this very small, these two guys sitting next to each other saying, well, we could just let people come into our labs. That's all we could do. And that's turned into something much bigger. [00:08:39] Peter Beaudoin: So it's really, yeah. About taking a number of, you know, getting together, starting on a concept, building that and growing over time. So this is, you know, and that's a, maybe that's a great point to say, let's talk a little bit about what you're doing in Alberta, because I know you're just sort of finishing the first phase of a project. So maybe you could tell us a little bit about what you've done here. [00:08:56] Liz Nilsen: We've been working with Platform Calgary and they contacted us, let's see a little bit more than a year ago, I guess, and said they were interested in Strategic Doing, and they were particularly interested in, training a set of people who were involved with Platform Calgary, their partners, and staff, and whoever else were kind of their stakeholders to learn something about Strategic Doing and learn how they might use the skills of agile leadership to push their collaborations farther. As they looked forward to opening their new building, offering new services and that kind of thing. so we had a set of, I think 45 people who went through an online training. So we used to do our training in person, of course. And then since the pandemic happened, we now do a lot of things online. so we did that. we then followed that up with a. What we call a workshop, which is a session in which we actually do Strategic Doing, and that included some people who had been through the training and then some people who had not been through the training, but, the people who had been trained were able to kind of guide the others through that process. and they were able to, identify some opportunities for, you know, putting their assets together and, and moving out on those. So that's, that's one thing we did somewhere in the middle of all that, Alberta Innovates decided that they also would like to have some people trained. And so a group of about 32 people maybe, went through the Strategic Doing course, which is a little bit more involved than the course of the Platform Calgary people had done. [00:10:18] Liz Nilsen: So they got trained. So now there's this pretty large group of about 75 people who have been trained in. thinking about how do we use those skills to push the innovation ecosystem forward. [00:10:27] Peter Beaudoin: Okay. So let's, so that's, you've got a group that you already trained and did a cohort and actually ran a program and you've got another group that's almost ready to take on, the first set of projects, I guess, or to go through the process. So can I just ask, like, when you look at this, I mean, it is a, it's a process that'll take a few years, like you said, in, in Shoals and in Milwaukee, it's not something that happens overnight. I mean, You know, so, so what were sort of the results to date? And I guess like, what's the next step? Where do you see this going for, for Alberta? [00:10:56] Liz Nilsen: So, yeah, it's not instant and, you know, like a lot of processes, you know, the saying of, you know, it works. If you work, it kinda kind of makes sense. you know, so it really does take people deciding that they're going to, embrace it and embrace particularly that every 30 days we're going to get back together and we're just going to keep moving. Even if we hit bumps, potholes. Oh, that thing that we thought was going to work. Oh, maybe not. Okay. Let's figure out what's next. It really does take that kind of discipline. So we certainly expect that. You know, will happen with the, with the groups that we did a workshop with. and we've already seen that, you know, we had, I think, eight groups at that initial workshop and, you know, some of those, projects for whatever reason, you know, the groups have decided no, that project doesn't really make sense anymore. but there are others that have gotten some traction and are continuing to move. the group that we trained from Alberta Innovates, they actually did identify at the very end of that course, some groups that they wanted to introduce Strategic Doing to using a workshop. So they, at this point, are probably starting to do that. [00:11:56] Liz Nilsen: You know, they're training, I think started in, I want to say the spring. So, you know, Canadian summer does put a little bit of a hiatus, some things, right. People are busy doing other things. but now as they head into fall, I think they're starting to implement those workshops. And, I'm, I'm curious to hear what's happened is they started to do that. [00:12:11] Peter Beaudoin: So cause, and, and I, like I'd mentioned, I'd taken the Strategic Doing course and also acted as a facilitator. So sort of led one of these teams and for one of the groups who worked on one of these projects and what we did is we had created a road map of how entrepreneurs in Calgary could find and onboard tech talent. We found, oh, there's a gap. You know? And we, we looked at that. So for us, we found that it was a good project, but when I think back on it, I recognize it's, it's only one project. So in a way it's a drop in a bucket. Right. So how, how do you know when this trickle of projects. Right starts to transform the ecosystem. Like what's the markers we should be looking for to go, wow, like we're, we're getting there. There's momentum. How do you measure that? [00:12:51] Liz Nilsen: Well, what the, the main product that comes out of a Strategic Doing workshop, you know, that very first time that groups together, the main product really isn't the project. The main product is trust because trust is what fuels ongoing innovation in a group because that first project usually is pretty small. Like yours was, you know, it, wasn't very large. Wasn't very complex. Didn't take you very long. But what it did was give you an opportunity to work together, to figure out whether or not you trusted each other. You figured out who it was that was going to live up to the commitments they made and who wasn't. And that's the kind of thing that then lets the group say, okay, we did this, we were successful. What can we do next? And who else have we met as we've done this other thing that we might want to bring in and work with us. So in some ways the most important thing that happens, our director likes to say, I don't care what you do, but do something because what you do, isn't as important as that experience of working together and building some trust, that's something that. It takes awhile to build. And it is a little bit one of those things where it's hard to measure, but most groups know when they've got it. [00:13:59] Peter Beaudoin: It's an interesting point because one of the things we did on our team is we were, you know what, I think we were seven people, one or two of the people I did know, you know, I I'd worked with them in the past, but it was all these new people. So I found, I found this was a great outcome where I built a network. I even, you know, phoned up each of the team members. Let's just do a 30 minute call to introduce ourselves. So now I've got a new contact point in the network to do things, right. It's just, you know, for, for me, that was one of the benefits. but so I want to ask, cause sort of continuing on that with the building of trust, because I did find the program intuitive, cause in a way you get a virtual team together to collaborate on a small project that it builds, it builds that community. It does build trust. But one thing is that you have to have participants in a way. Well, if possible subordinate in a way, their organizational goals from the ecosystem objectives. Cause you're trying to say it's not about my day job in a way I'm trying to contribute to the ecosystem. And sometimes that's a challenge, right? Because you're asking people to contribute time and effort and energy. So, so how do you sort of overcome that? Right. Cause it's sort of, this does take time and that's a challenge in this process. [00:15:08] Liz Nilsen: It is a challenge. You know, we work with lots of different kinds of organizations in Strategic Doing and the degree to which that's an issue just depends on the context, you know, but certainly in this project yes. You know, that the request to people was, although maybe not so explicit was, you know, please come together. And be at the table to help grow the ecosystem more than to help grow your organization. And that is, you know, some people, are very interested in doing that and very invested in doing that and other people not so much. And I mean, that's something you can't really. Change for people. There are people who might say at the beginning, you know what? I just got too much going on to really want to do that. some of them will come back because at some point they'll say, Hey, the benefits my organization can get out of being part of a thriving ecosystem, outweigh this contribution of time that they're asking me to make for other people, it's always going to be one of those. I love this Canadian phrase is we don't have this in the United States. It's always going to be a project off the side of the desk. You know, it's never gonna kind of make its way back onto the desk, but you don't really know until you get into the middle of it and you ask people to make commitments. [00:16:14] Peter Beaudoin: Yeah. And it is interesting because I did find that it is a challenge because you're doing it remotely. Right. So for the people I did know in the team, it was easy to sort of build that. Hey, I haven't seen you in awhile. Let's build the trust. But for people you don't know. You know, if a face-to-face event would actually give you that more building of trust and building community etcetera. So I appreciate that. So I guess from experience in other jurisdictions, how many cycles usually of Strategic Doing, does it take for learnings to stick? Because like I was a facilitator in one table. You know, and it's like, okay, I'm sorta getting a hang of this process. And you know, maybe we do a few more, but how do you get it where it becomes momentum in the ecosystem? [00:16:54] Liz Nilsen: That's a really interesting question. I don't know that I have an exact answer for it. So, you know, the initial project that I learned Strategic Doing on had to do with, teams from universities in the United States that were working on changing engineering education. And I worked with 50 teams. And they learned the process. They picked a first project. I did some coaching with them along the way to kind of get them through that first project and maybe a second project maybe. And then they were kind of on their own. And, then we looked back at the end and kind of looked at, you know, who, you know, which teams had been, effective, which teams hadn't been. And, you know, why, what kinds of, what kinds of factors maybe played into that? We looked at lots of different kinds of things. I think the, you know, keeping at that, we're going to have a meeting every 30 days, no matter what. That really is what it takes. And, you know, sometimes those meetings are, oh my God, You know, this thing that we thought we're going to do was a disaster. And, you know, I, I have some of those stories where a group picked a project and they went, oh my goodness, that doesn't work at all. you know, It's too big. Or our dean says that stop, you know, you're not doing that or whatever. And a team has to be able to say, okay, so what do we do next? And that's really the difference between teams where it sticks and teams where it doesn't, it's just that ability to say every 30 days, you know, the group in the Shoals, they've been meeting every 30 days for seven years. The people at the table have changed, [00:18:18] Peter Beaudoin: but the process goes lives on in a way. Yeah. Yeah. And so, well, and again, it's interesting because I'm always, when I look at it, I I've come in at the very earliest stages cause it's really a trickle of projects and, and it's almost like, okay, it's going to grow. And so, so when you, I guess, is I'm just thinking of the evolution for this. Like you say, some groups they meet every month. They've been doing it for seven years, but we've got when we did it in Calgary, we had approximately. I think seven or eight groups, as you said. Right? So we're all, you know, you're talking seven or eight projects. You do that a few times. So I guess what happens next in that context is the idea to do more of these small projects or at one point you moved to bigger, but that's in a way that's. The original intent of Strategic Doing is a bite sized project. If you start saying, well, we're going to, like you had mentioned combining two labs, that's not a bite-sized project anymore. That's a major infrastructure rebuild or repositioning. So how does that, how do you transition from small projects do major pieces? [00:19:21] Liz Nilsen: Part of It has the scenes of it are in how you pick that first project. So, you know, there's several criteria. We ask groups to take a look at when they're picking that first project. And you know, one of them is you can do it without getting permission. it has to be big enough to involve everybody because that's part of that building trust is everybody has to have something to do. It has to be big enough. One of the other criteria is it needs to be something that's interesting enough that when other people hear about it, they will be interested to hear and hopefully get involved. [00:19:50] Liz Nilsen: Because you do want to be able to pull more people in because that gives you more capacity to do bigger projects. So the extent to which you can pick something that has those characteristics. Then allows you to slowly like, oh, okay. Maybe now we split into two groups and we could do two things at the same time, you know, eventually. And you know, this is the hope for the Platform Calgary group or whatever is that they have, you know, a process going where they have a core team kind of at the middle of the core team is keeping its eye on maybe several different kinds of initiatives. And there might be several projects within each of those, as those projects, you know, get some traction and attract other people. [00:20:29] Peter Beaudoin: Cause I do see it as a way as you build trust. And then once that trust grows, then there's that trust to try something bigger because the first time you're like, oh, well how big do we want to do this? We don't know all these people around the table, but I can see that as you, as you learn from people, then you're, you're willing to try something bigger. Right. You're willing to try something. [00:20:46] Liz Nilsen: Ya, and I think the other thing is that there is nothing, as you think about kind of attracting other people and recruiting them to be part of it. You know, there's a part of that that feels kind of scary because it feels like, oh, I'm asking people to make a contribution. You know, it's a little bit like asking for money, right? But the reality is that people really want to join a group that's actually getting something done. Because we have all spent so much time in meetings with groups that could never get off the dime. You can sort of demonstrate like, no, this is really going to be different really. And truly it's going to be different. People are pretty ready to sign up for that, actually. [00:21:21] Peter Beaudoin: Yeah. And it is, people are looking for solutions to some of this where, and, you know, the, the Canadian expression of side of your desk is if you're going to have a project on the side of your desk, how can you do it the most effectively? And I found Strategic Doing gives you that opportunity of a mechanism to go spend a little bit of time. And create outcomes right across the ecosystem. So, no, that's good. So I just wanted to ask, like, so the course itself, I mean, for the listeners who are interested to know, I mean, the course itself is, you know, is available for people who want to sign up for the course. Correct? I mean, there, you can take it. It's virtual, it's available. [00:21:56] Liz Nilsen: It's available both virtually and in person these days, now that we're starting to come out of the pandemic, we have, we have both options available. Okay. So that's, so for those, I guess, and for those listeners who want to know more about the Agile Strategy Lab, or Strategic Doing, what should they do? Yeah. So they can come to our website, which is AgileStrategyLab.org. And that'll tell them about all the different things we do, which includes Strategic Doing. go beyond that as well. And that's the best way to do that. They can also contact us and say, Hey, I, you know, heard the podcast. I'd like to learn more and we'd be happy to reach out and have a conversation. [00:22:29] Peter Beaudoin: Great. Okay. Well, look, Liz, I do want to say thanks for your time. I think this was a great discussion today. So again, thanks again. [00:22:36] Liz Nilsen: Thanks for having me really appreciate it. [00:22:38] Peter Beaudoin: So for those listeners, if you did like this episode, please subscribe to the podcast and thanks for listening. Al Del Degan Hosts Robert Herritt
Listen to the episode here: rainforestalberta.podbean.com/e/e0142/ [00:00:00] Al Del Degan: Hey everybody. Welcome to the episode. today my special guest is Robert Herritt. Robert is the president of a company called Styro Go, and you may find this as fascinating and conversation as I know I am going to. Apparently styrofoam is recyclable and easily recyclable, but we're just not doing it. So, Robert, thanks for joining me today. [00:00:21] Robert Herritt: Absolutely Al, thanks for inviting me. [00:00:23] Al Del Degan: Well, let's start out. Like I always do Robert and let's talk a little bit about who you are, like, how did you, how did your career path sort of end up in you starting this business? Like what, what, what did you do, when you came out of that came out of school and started your career? [00:00:37] Robert Herritt: I certainly have a bit of a colorful past, I, I graduated university with a degree in geography and political science. I was going to go into law that went to New Zealand for a six week holiday. I ended up living there for two and a half years and came back as a pilot because, that normally happens, I got stuck. So I came back to Canada, finished up my commercial qualifications, at an aviation college in Eastern Canada and found myself getting my foot in the door with, Calgary and Alberta's original airline, from there, after 9-11, though, it totally took the fun out of the industry. And, and I still have friends there that, you know, it's unimaginable that their kids have never been up to the flight deck and seeing where they are cause it's the best seat in the sky. And yet the world has changed and apparently it's gotten a little better, but of course you still can't have people up there. So, I saw my opportunity to exit and go into private business so I took that chance and of course everyone's like, you're crazy. Now they look at me and they're like, you know, you're so lucky. And I'm like, that is a little hard work in the middle there. Right. But, I started a small business doing consulting, had to go get a job on the side. And I first got my business up and running because, you know, consulting is something where you do the working, you get paid later. So I, did some consulting for a few different clients. And then a friend of mine had, won the contract with a major developer for a major multi-family project in Southeast Calgary. And he approached me and said, listen, can you manage it for me 'cause you could literally crawl your crawl across the street to where it is, and I'm on the exact opposite side of the city. So I did that and it ended up being this huge project over 400 units and seven years of work. Yeah. It was a huge condo project, but it was during that time that I was there, and I can specifically remember watching just these dumpsters piled high with styrofoam going to the dump and that's where the seed was planted. I can still remember sitting in the construction shack just looking out the window, and it was about this time of year actually, it was cold and the snow was on the ground and I'm going, it's got a recycle symbol on it, why doesn't somebody do anything? So I started doing a bit of homework and went, oh! there's no money in it. That's why nobody does it. So I took it on as a bit of a, just a, you know, project management challenge to say, okay, I can land a hundred tonne aircraft. I can manage a huge 400 unit project. I can figure out how to make recycling styrofoam work. So it began a just, it took me about 18 months to figure it out, figure out the technology. Line up the vendors and everything else, it took about 18 months to figure out the specifics. It was unique enough. I knew I certainly didn't go down this path to invent an industry, but it was unique enough that I got three patents issued on it. Yeah. And then from there. You know, we started out, auspiciously trying to change everybody's belief that, as you said, styrofoam actually is recyclable contrary to what, you know, the messaging that we've been fed for a long time. [00:03:45] Al Del Degan: You said something really interesting. You said that the, the styrofoam packaging itself has a recyclable symbol on it. so it was anybody in the world recycling styrofoam before you came up with the idea? absolutely. There is. I guess previous to my involvement, really, there's only two types of styrofoam recycling. [00:04:03] Robert Herritt: There are the companies that a) had really deep pockets and b) produced such an enormous amount that it made sense for them to invest in the machinery to do. a great example of this would be Canada's own The Brick, you know, because they deal in such large volumes of appliances and furniture, their DC's in Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, and Ontario all have a machine. And, you know, they produce trailers of the stuff per week. So when you're into that level, you know, it, it made sense that, and they didn't go into this. And the other thing is that they there's, nobody that's gone in just out from recycling as a business model, they got into. To reduce their garbage costs. It wasn't an economic opportunity in terms of generating revenue. It was merely a method to reduce cost. Aside from them, the only other ones were municipalities. They were government funded and just like the government funds, the C-Train or the buses, they do that as a public service. And most of the time those services actually lose money, but we do it for the betterment of the, of the community. And likewise, there's two small communities in Alberta that have been doing styrofoam recycling for more than a decade. And they do it for their small community. It costs the community significant money per year to run per capita it's their most expensive service that they provide to their citizens, but it's something that they had to vote on many years ago. And the citizens said, yes, they'd rather see a $3 hike in their taxes, you know, for a small community, to pay for the service. [00:05:35] Al Del Degan: Okay. So now I think one of the important points to mention is that Styrofoam, big white chunks of styrofoam that are wrapped around your television set or your couch or whatever, when you buy something, that's actually plastic, right? It's a form of plastic. And so tell us a little bit about, I mean, obviously not in great detail, but just in general, the process that you came up with and what happens after the process? Like what's the result of that process? [00:06:03] Robert Herritt: The thumbnail sketch of styrofoam itself, you know, obviously there's been attempts to set other materials, be used for packaging. There's waxed cardboard, there's peanuts. There's more recently, you know, airbags. Certainly there has been a few studies. one of the most conclusive was done by somebody at the university of Victoria, where they studied all the different packaging materials and found that styrofoam is by far. a) the most cost-effective and b) the least impactful to the environment. When you consider upstream and downstream water, energy, raw material input, you know, the whole life cycle of these various products, they found that polystyrene was by far the best and a further study has been done very recently, out of California showing that of all the plastics, polystyrene is one of the easiest to recycle. So it's, it fits very nicely with the way that the world is moving towards circular economy. And the resin producers and manufacturers are moving this direction where they really discovered they were part of the problem why recycling various plastics didn't happen because you could have the most dedicated eco- warrior who goes and buys a rotisserie chicken and the bottom was made of plastic number four and the top was plastic. Number five. Then they would scrub it out to where it's completely sanitary and brand new again, but they're not going to have six different plastic bins for the recycling company to pick up. They put it in the blue bin. And because you got two different plastic codes that can't be recycled. So they realize we're part of the problem here. So and of course they haven't done this in a public announcement or fanfare, but certainly if you start looking at those little, the three little arrows with the number in the middle, if you start looking at those in the grocery store, you'll see the vast majority are now shifting to plastics four five and six. They're really shifting the vast majority of them into those plastic because those three resins can be with advanced recycling, that's another topic, can be co-mingled and successfully recycled, upcycled. And so the, the people who are making the plastics are certainly investing a lot of money into making sure that they can be recycled with our current recycling infrastructure. Probably the best example of not just the resin producers, but also companies would be Keurig Dr. Pepper. And so the people that made Keurig and those K-cups that you put in for a single dose coffee, and then you pull it out and you know, how do you recycle it? And they spent millions of dollars, figuring out how to make the outside hard plastic, the same plastic resin as if you peel off the top and inside your coffee grounds, or if you'd dumped the coffee grounds out, you've got a little mesh net in there it's flexible. And they spent millions of dollars figuring out how to make that soft, flexible mesh, the same plastic as the hard exterior, but they were able to do it. And that's why now K-cups, you'll see, they all have this little green triangle on them saying recyclable because you just peel off the lid, empty the coffee grounds, give it a quick rinse, throw it in your blue bin because it's all plastic number five and it can be easily recycled. So, you know, companies are really moving, and putting significant effort and finances into making sure that their products can be recycled with ease. [00:09:26] Al Del Degan: That's brilliant. That's fantastic. and then the, the second part of my question with styrofoam recycling, how does that process work and what can you do with what comes out of the other end? [00:09:35] Robert Herritt: It's funny enough of styrofoam or polystyrene as it's a styrofoam is a brand name. And of course, most people don't ask for a facial tissue. They'll say, do you have a Kleenex? And styrofoam has become ubiquitous where it's referred to in the generic sense and people refer to meat, trays and everything else that resembles that, or seems like they use the brand name styrofoam to describe it. So with styrofoam it's really been a bit under the radar of most people's consciousness, as you mentioned that it seems that it wasn't recyclable and you know, that was your understanding. And that's been something that's been propagated a lot by municipalities because the answer is, yes, it can be recycled with current technology that hasn't evolved over 20 years. So using existing technology is prohibitively expensive. So it was much easier to, for municipalities and cities to say, yes, it can't be recycled because then they're not going to get flack from citizens about why don't you do it? Where if they just say, no, it's not recyclable, okay, no problem. Then people don't object to it. So, with styrofoam, the irony is that, it was kind of the forgotten cousin of the plastics world and nothing really had evolved. so when I started looking at this, the technology was decades old and really nothing had been done. Whereas most other recycling technologies have advanced considerably. most people, hopefully some of your listeners anyway, will remember, you know, 20 odd years ago with cardboard, if it had a staple in it. And those of us old enough to remember, when your bills came in the mail. So you got your Telus bill or whatever, come in the mail. If you wanted to recycle the envelope, you had to take your bill out. And then you had to peel off that little clear plastic window. For it to be recyclable. And, you know, that's, that's where that started. And you know, some of your listeners are going, Bill's come in the mail?, you know, but it's, but that's where it started. And with cardboard, if it had a staple in it, it was rejected, you know, or a sticker. So, you know, that's where it was such limitations that, you know, companies that were trying to do their best, McDonald's like the fry boxes and things that they go through mountains of. And I mean, having to peel off these stickers that were on like concrete and staples or whatever, But nowadays they're bundled into these bales and sit outside Walmart for two months covered in snow and, and stuff and their recycled no problem. That's because the technology has evolved where there's value in it. And these contamination issues really are easily dealt with. Polystyrene or styrofoam really was still stuck in the, you know, the, the era of the eighties and the nineties it's decades, old technology that said it could be recycled with what I refer to as legacy recyclers, where. we put it in a machine. It greatly reduces its volume. That's the key. That's what makes styrofoam so great at what it does. It takes a lot of space and it's strong, but it weighs nothing. That's the same problem as to why it can't be recycled conventionally because you'll spend $500 to collect $50 worth of material. [00:12:30] Robert Herritt: So, we put it in a machine. That'll greatly reduce the volume. It takes up. It simply is. you know, if you put it in a cardboard baler, it'll reduce it by about two thirds, but a, you know, half to two thirds, depending on the Baylor, when we put it in our machine, we will reduce it from like a 53 foot trailer load, which we do for some clients. We'll do that in a couple of hours. The 53 foot trailer load of styrofoam is about 3000 cubic feet. And we will reduce that from that size to almost about half the size of a conventional fridge in a few hours and that, you know, so we'll go from 3000 cubic feet to, you know, roughly, maybe 30 cubic feet and it weighs 1200 pounds. So we reduce it and it becomes more dense and therefore economical the transport when it goes to our machine, like I said, it gets to about 60 or 65 pounds per cubic foot is the density. We sell this to offshore manufacturers. They run it through a grinder. It comes out locally like rice, basically. It's then graded according to color and clarity, and then it's used as their basic raw material for injection molding and these kind of things blow molding. They can make. An unbelievable amount of, things from it. And I guarantee the average Canadian has multiple items in their home, made from this, it's very common. About 80% of the time when you see something that's a finished or manufactured product, and it says on, it contains recycled material, 80% of the time it's polystyrene. Cause it's so compatible with almost anything else. They can make it look like anything. They can make it look like stainless steel, marble, granite, brushed nickel, birds-eye maple, you know, slate. They can make it look like anything. I've been to the factories and have watched the process. And it's truly amazing what they do. And as a secondary benefit, I came to realize that whenever they have a shortfall of styrofoam, as feedstock, what they do then is they use wood, for presses. So, you know, the secondary benefit of recycling styrofoam is you're displacing, you know, the use of wood as a manufacturing. So it was kind of a secondary green effect there where they're not cutting down trees for manufacturing, they're using a plastic. Most people look at certain things like that and go, well, if they didn't have it, they don't make it. No, the demand is there for the products they're making. If they don't have plastics to recycle and put into it as a feed stock, then they'll just use wood, you know? So, yeah. But, The short answer to your question is they take the material it's made into these various moldings frames. It can be picture frames, tiles, backsplashes, baseboards, crown moldings, any kind of a decorative piece, small spaces like in airlines and stuff. I think I'm a real favorite of this where they can make it look like a marble countertop in the bathroom in the first class section of the aircraft. But of course marble is very heavy weight is bad on an aircraft. So these kinds of decorative touches that look amazing and high quality, but yet have low weight. So it's various things like this that they can do that, even in cars, most automobiles now are hugely mostly plastic. And so even some of the finished wood touches and so forth on some of your automobiles are actually recycled styrofoam because they can make it look that way, and it works well. [00:15:44] Al Del Degan: That's incredible. And just maybe as a followup question, are, are those products that are made from the recycled styrofoam? are they, is it possible to further recycle those if they need to? [00:15:56] Robert Herritt: The best of my understanding is no. certainly it's more of, a diversion from waste as opposed to a true circular economy or closed loop systems, so to speak. And part of the problem is. You know, these are legacy recyclers, whereas, you know, the technologies from decades old, the technology did not exist 30 years ago to turn a can of Coke back into a can of Coke. But now that's aluminum is a closed loop recycle program where, you know, 95% of it goes back and makes the exact same thing again. But again, the that's that's legacy recycling. and the good news is, is that finally, innovation is catching up and polystyrene is getting an awful lot of attention these days in terms of. For recyclability and, and other valuable components that it has in it. so just before COVID yet we are actually were approached by two companies. Now a third has come on the scene, interested in partnering up with us to be able to take the polystyrene or styrofoam that we collect and recycle it with. What's been kind of termed in the industry. As advanced recycling, that's not necessarily one specific method, but it's just that term is being applied to technologies that are able to basically recycle styrofoam into other things, which obviously can be recycled further amounts or, you know, endlessly in a closed loop system. So the technology has finally come about where they can take styrofoam regardless of the contamination and recycle it into brand new virgin styrofoam. They also are able to take it and break it down chemically. And the reason why styrofoam is so popular for this application is because really it's just a pure Petrol product. And so they're able to reverse engineer. Most of these technologies revolve around something called pyrolysis, which is a certain. well-established technology, which is basically heating up a plastic in the absence of oxygen. And then they're able to start capturing the off gases that come from it and using it for various applications. But we're the advanced part of the recycling comes in is where everybody seems to have a different spin on it. Some of them use powerful electric magnets, some use microwave's, there's various applications that they can bring to bear that further enhance the pyrolysis system. And from this, they can turn it into diesel, gasoline, jet fuel. There's a company in Ontario called Green Mantra. so you know, there's Pyro Wave in Montreal, they just signed a deal with, they used microwaves to, further enhanced their advanced recycling of styrofoam. They just signed a major deal with Michelin, Michelin is convinced that they can reverse engineer the styrofoam using power waves technology and make up to 12% of the tire from styrofoam and Green Mantra, they've had various, they've had huge success dealing with polypropylene, which is plastic resin number five, the little three arrows on the bottom of something. so, but they've done some trials with polystyrene, which is number six. [00:18:58] Robert Herritt: They can recycle the polystyrene into various things like decking or the ink that's used in dry erase markers and various other applications. And when you're using these kinds of things, certainly that's still linear, but you're greatly displaceing virgin resin from being turned into that. So you're displacing basically the original petrochemical source that would be normally be captured for this. And in the case of another company in the U S called Agile X, they actually have really perfected and closed the loop on polystyrene, where they can take any form of polystyrene, even foodware, which has kind of been that achilles heel of the whole industry, which has contaminated with greases or oils and that sort of thing. They've developed the technology and perfected it where they can take food grade material contaminated with food, and they can recycle that into brand new styrofoam. [00:19:55] Al Del Degan: With this recycling ability, I know that Cochrane has had a, a recycle program for quite some time, and so have some other smaller towns, but Calgary and Edmonton specifically do not recycle styrofoam at the moment. Can you maybe give us an idea of why that is and how that's hopefully going to change? [00:20:14] Robert Herritt: So those familiar with. I guess, you know, had their ear to the, to the eco chatter. so to speak. Alberta is finally bringing in, what's called an Extended Producer Responsibility program. Those wheels are finally and fully in motion. There were stakeholder engagements back in January of 2021. And so those wheels are in motion. Incidentally, Alberta is the last province in Canada to have an EPR of course, but. The benefit being that obviously you can stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before you, you can learn from their mistakes. BC is the pioneer in North America in regards to this, they've had an EPR for 14 years. and they made lots of mistakes because they were the first and, you know, so they, they really trailblazed the way. And then there's Ontario and other regions. So Alberta has been, very pointedly, you know, cherry picking the best of the BC and Ontario programs and, wanting to add their own unique Alberta enhancements and so forth to make sure it works here, which is fantastic. So that is coming in and for those of your listeners who are not familiar with it, the short version of EPR is simply that there's something called the AUMA, the Alberta urban municipal association. It's kind of a group of the larger municipalities in the province that, you know, it's an association for them to deal collectively with the provincial government. They did a study and realized that because everybody else has an EPR program and we don't the citizens of Alberta are already paying for one. The problem is because there's no legislation we're actually they're getting the benefit and then they cited a few examples. One being manufacturers, of course, across Canada are already a part of this program. It's just not here. So Samsung has an $800 dishwasher, for instance. They sell that dishwasher in BC for $800. Buried in the price, it's not transparent or visible to the consumer, is $12 for an EPR, but they don't sell that same dishwasher here for $788. It's still $800, the $12 we're already paying, but because there's no legislation it's not submitted, then it's not evil corporations that don't want to give up the money, it's, you know, if the government doesn't have a specific line code for you to submit something, they won't, they're all about bureaucracy and process. And if there's not a process for it, you can't do anything about it. That actually is part of the problem why we're not involved, here in, in, in Calgary and Edmonton, the, the EPR coming in, that, that money is already being paid out. [00:22:41] Robert Herritt: And so they did a very comprehensive study and they found that there's in well over a hundred million dollars a year, that is being paid by Alberta citizens. And because there's no legislation, we're not getting any benefit from it. And. Everything from your bottle of Pert shampoo has 12 cents or, you know, whatever, there's money already baked into the price of virtually all the paper and plastic packaging that is part of the recycling programs. And so, yeah, so that's, that's where that is. It's a little bit different than say the beverage recycling program where there's a deposit and as well, and you'll have noticed that when you go by. Case of water or whatever that they'll charge an extra 2 cents a bottle or something, but it was called the CRF fee or something, but that's visible on the machine. This is something that's completely baked in the price. It's invisible to the consumer, but it's, it's very much there. So they realize that, well, we're really losing out on this and these are serious numbers. They said that obviously, if they distributed the money across Alberta on a per capita basis, Calgary would get something like $22 million dollars a year. And so this isn't some one-time half a million dollar grant from the feds or something. This is significant revenue that would displace what we, as taxpayers are funding. So the, the impetus is on them to, to bring an EPR into place. Part of how an EPR is going to be run is, there has to be eco centers now for your listeners outside of Calgary this will be very obvious. People in Calgary will be what really, if they haven't gone elsewhere. And that is. The Calgary is the only major city without an eco centre without a recycling center. We have a assemblance of it, the three landfills with the throw and go where you can take fluorescent bulbs and batteries and paints and these kinds of things. But there's no actual EcoCenter where you can bring things. Whereas. In Edmonton, they have four, they've got one in each quadrant to the city. And when you roll in there, they can take almost everything like mattresses, small electronics and all these things, paints, everything else. And, so, you know, so they have that all set up. And so part of an EPR program will entail that the city category will have to get some eco centers done up and accessible for people to obviously make it convenient enough to be a part of. And these are typically separate from landfill. So that's where the city of Calgary is kind of behind on this for even the surrounding communities that we go to Okotokes, Airdrie, Cochrane, they have an EcoCenter that's where you bring everything that can be recycled and they take care of it. So that shift has to happen in Calgary. It's the only major city that does not have that. Virtually every town in BC, Saskatchewan, all these other places, they have that. so that be part of what is required for new EPR program. And then that will be the main du jour, I would say, you'll see these green bins that are in the Home Depot parking lot, that people drop everything at and then it blows all over the parking lot. Those likely will diminish in number. They may not go away entirely, but certainly with the availability and convenience of an eco center where you can just pull in and open the trunk, and people take everything out for you, it's just a vastly more efficient method, so that that's the transition that's going to happen here in Calgary. So when that does happen, certainly you'll see that part of the main problem with we actually service all those surrounding communities of Calgary, Edmonton Red Deer and Lethbridge, all the major cities we do, the smaller communities around it. Just know the big ones. And the main issue is bureaucracy, with smaller communities, their budget matters and, Playing with so many zeros. And if they can save typically a lot of these places don't have the infrastructure costs to run their own landfill. you know, Airdrie, Cochrane, these places, Chestermere, they'll send their stuff to the Calgary landfill. so of course, any garbage they have to transport and they readily recognize the transporting styrofoam, which is an essentially air is very costly. That's why all the, the smaller communities, they see an immediate safety. And so that's why they've all gotten on board. Whereas for the larger cities, especially the ones that run the infrastructure. you know, I actually had a city counselor in Calgary told me, well, you know, you can throw the dump for free. So no, it isn't free actually. you know, there is an economic cost to that, it's just it disappears in your budget. Whereas obviously with a recycle program is an extra line item, but, you know, certainly there is a cost that when things go in the landfill, incidentally, Toronto is, is realizing this with a very harsh reality that their landfills were filling up faster than expected. It takes 10 to 12 years to develop a new landfill and. about seven months ago, CBC reported on this in the, in the GTA where their new landfill will open up in about five years. And their current landfill is about to close the two years. So they are, they're trying and scrambling to figure out how to fill that three year gap where they otherwise there'll be like, you know, trucking a hundred trucks a day to Chicago or somewhere, and you'll see, you know, the tipping fee in Toronto, like, you know, they'll have to add a zero to it or something to pay for this. So they are now, EPR, Ontario is actually revamping their EPR to a full, funded EPR what it's called and their, their goal is they want to divert as much as possible from what's going to landfill because they don't have the space. And the alternative is ridiculously expensive, so there is, there is a cost to filling up the landfill faster and there's a significant savings to, you know, filling it up with, things sooner. So, anyway, that's the answer to the question is, certainly, the bureaucracy is one of the main issues. Smaller communities have smaller budgets that they recognize the savings because it's more apparent to them. but with EPR coming in that will Trump the bureaucracy of the bigger establishments and force everybody to get on board. And this isn't a styrofoam, of course, this will be everything under the sun, you know, that can be recycled with the various plastics and, you know, shopping bags, tires. Absolutely. You know, Alberta's one of the better ones that's taking the initiative with, with electronics, you know, but there's various other products out there that need recycling outlets, and there's no easy alternative. So with an EPR, it'll definitely have there's various chemicals that are sometimes difficult, like antifreeze and oils and these sort of things that you just can't dump it down the drain. You can't throw it in the black bin. [00:28:59] Al Del Degan: Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. On a side note, I get it, like I get business, but it's disturbing that people look at. Throwing things in the landfill or not as something is either cost-effective or not rather than going, is it right? Like, is it right to just bury things and let them decompose for millions of years, rather than actually turning them into something usable or somehow recycling it into a new product . I don't know what could possibly, make that change happen. But, I guess it gets, if it becomes financially beneficial to recycle rather than not recycling, but that's about the only thing that's going to make the change. But, you know, we, as consumers and we, as, as citizens of these municipalities, I mean, we have a voice too. And if enough of us scream out loud, someone's going to have to do something about it. you know, and, and you know, this, this is really an interesting, we don't really get overly political on this podcast or anything like that, but I mean, I would love to see all the listeners of this podcast, start putting your styrofoam in your garage and, and waiting till you can recycle it rather than just throwing it into the landfill. One of the things that we did here in Crestmont is we have a, Crestmont cleanup day that we used to do twice a year. and the city of Calgary would bring their garbage trucks and we'd have Women In Need, collect things that could still be used. And we had tire recycling and paint recycling and whatever. [00:30:27] Al Del Degan: And Robert, you came to, one of our most recent ones where you actually had your truck there and people brought tons and tons of styrofoam and you collected it all and, and took it away. And I actually, it was, it was even though to me, it was a ton of styrofoam to you. It probably wasn't a whole lot, but are you open to, community associations, doing recycling days and having you join them to collect, the styrofoam? [00:30:56] Robert Herritt: Absolutely. That is definitely something we very much wanting to be a part of in public engagement. And, and again, as you said, it's, you know, the, to, to paraphrase, you know, if the citizens demanded, then the bureaucrats will come and certainly public awareness is the single most important thing it is available. It is cost effective. obviously I'm talking about styrofoam here, but it's available. It's cost effective. It can be done smaller municipalities that don't have the, you know, 18 levels of bureaucracy recognize the benefit and have gotten on board. like I said, we're at about four dozen municipalities we service right now. [00:31:32] Robert Herritt: We've got about 40, more that, have recently been inquiring about service. And so that we're in negotiations to, to get arrangements made and to be able to offer up the service to them. Probably close to a hundred municipalities by the end of the year that we'll be receiving the service here in Alberta. So it's, if enough people demand. in Calgary and Edmonton, then the authorities will, will bend to their will. So that's, it's just needs to be a change in, will have character from, from the citizens to force that. And, and the gatekeepers of the systems will, will listen because, you know, after all, at the end of the day, we're in charge as the citizens. [00:32:13] Al Del Degan: Right on. Yeah, that's a great point. So Rainforest let's, let's put our heads together and figure out how we can make this happen. There needs to be styrofoam recycling along with our other recycling programs, there's just no way these large, gigantic chunks of air should be put into a landfill, taking up space and decomposing over millions of years. It's just not intelligent. It's not, something that we should be doing and we're better than that. So let's, let's put our heads together and figure this out. And Robert, I'm guessing you're here for us and we have any questions or we'll have your link to your LinkedIn profile in the show notes on your company website. if, if anybody has any questions, I'm assuming they can reach out to you and help get things figured out. [00:32:59] Robert Herritt: Absolutely, feel free to give us a call or send an email customerservice@styrogo.com. We can certainly get back to you. And, we, we certainly do field a lot of requests for service and we're able to point people in the right direction. And you know, if it's a community or nearby community where you were, where we are providing a service, we're, we're able to directly help. [00:33:19] Al Del Degan: Fantastic. Well, thanks, Robert. I appreciate very much you coming and sharing your story with us today. [00:33:25] Robert Herritt: Thanks for your time, appreciate it Al. [00:33:27] Al Del Degan: Cheers. Okay. Everybody, tune in next week for another exciting episode of the Leaders, Innovators, and Big Ideas podcast for Rainforest, Alberta, and, have a wonderful rest of your day. Al Del Degan Hosts Navin Jetha
If you would like to listen to this episode, visit: https://rainforestalberta.podbean.com/e/e0140/ [00:00:00] Al Del Degan: Hey everybody. Welcome to the episode. on this episode, I have another InceptionU graduate. Her name is Navan Jetha, hi Navan thanks for joining me. [00:00:08] Navin Jetha: Hi, Al, how are you? [00:00:10] Al Del Degan: Good, thanks. Good. Thanks. It's so cool to have you here. I want to start out the show as I usually do, and you're a really, really fascinating person. You've got a really, really cool background. And, I'd love to hear a little bit about your mini version of your life story. If you don't mind. [00:00:28] Navin Jetha: A mini version. Okay. I was born in east Africa, Tanzania, and immigrated to Canada on 1978 or something like that. And, when I first came, it was a really foreign country, right. Like, I mean, here, I've never seen snow before. Right. So snow, when I first know what it was like, wow, this what's no looks like. And I was just, you know, so fascinated by it. well, when we, when we came to Canada, my parents immigrated for education. So education has been, very near and dear to my heart. When, if there's an opportunity for education, I just, most of the time I've just gone for it, you know, [00:01:09] Al Del Degan: They came here for your education or for, or because they're educators or maybe you could just clarify that? [00:01:16] Navin Jetha: Yeah, my parents came here for our education because they didn't have any educational opportunities. Right. They were entrepreneurs, they were business people, they had businesses running. And so that's why I also have this, a heart over that I want to business, you know, and, but at the same time, education is very, very important in our culture and it was very highly stressed upon us. [00:01:46] Al Del Degan: That's pretty cool. That's actually really cool. So now you're here. What sort of a trail led you to, I guess being a health instructor and I think it's yoga. Correct. And, and then from that you decided to all of a sudden pivot to, becoming a software developer. I'd love to hear how that all happened. [00:02:06] Navin Jetha: Yeah, actually I started when I first, when I, when we came to Canada and then when it was time to go to university, I did take computer science. So I do have a bachelor of science in computer science, and I was hired by a major oil company right after graduation. And for six years, I was, I was a systems analyst, a database administrator, technical writer. I had several roles. I played in that one position. So I did learn quite a bit, coming out of. that position, then what ended up happening is that, the company I was with merged with another company and some of us got laid off. So during that time, this is, this is what happened. I took this, computer science. So I do have computer science background fast forward a few years. What ended up happening in the middle of all that is life happened in the middle of that. I had children, I went through a divorce and things happen. And when I had little children and I got laid off, I, at that point, I decided, you know, what? It makes like the jobs that I was, they were available to me after that position were all twenty four seven on call and I had two little children and it just didn't make any sense as a. to work at a position where, I may not be able to commit completely a hundred percent. Right. So what I ended up doing is open a day home and that worked out really well, you know, and I realized that I enjoyed running my own business. I enjoyed being home with my family. I enjoyed, I had the flexibility, you know, So that's, that's what I did. And then after that one day I was sitting around, sitting around. I was, I was looking at a magazine, it was a guide, it was a recreation guide with the city of Calgary. And I was flipping over the pages to look for a swim classes for my kids to, to put them in the swim classes. And I saw an ad in there saying, looking for fitness leaders. And so I called it was fun. It was interesting because I called right away. Right. In that moment I phoned one of the fitness centers and she said, yeah, we need fitness leaders and we need a water instructors. She said, can you start with that? I said, sure. So I started off as a water instructor and ended up teaching other things like group fitness. And I started teaching yoga then. And I became very passionate about yoga. [00:04:50] Al Del Degan: Yeah. Yoga is so amazing. Like, w I mean, people's lives have been transformed by just getting into yoga. That's amazing. [00:04:58] Navin Jetha: Yeah. So I found that I, I learned so much from that. Just the, just the fact that I had to be in front of so many people in the at first when I started, I had so much anxiety. Like I'm like, how am I going to teach? I had no problem remembering the routine or remembering what I had to teach. But as soon as I gone in front of people, it was like, oh my God, it's like, I kind of became paralyzed a couple of times, but then I broke through that. And that's when I really felt confident and I realized I can actually do this. And I, I fell in love with it. I said, I'm making an impact and changing people's lives. I'm bringing energy to the T to the group. I'm like, I felt so good. And I knew all the people that came from my, to my class felt amazing as well. So that's what kept me going there. Yeah. But then of course, pandemic hit. Right? And then we all got laid off fitness center is shut down and I was like, well, what am I going to do? And, one of the students in my yoga class called me one day, she missed the class. Cause I was teaching a VR, virtual yoga class at the time she missed a class and she said, I missed your class. I'm so sorry, but I got a new job women in technology. And she said, why, why don't you apply for one of these programs? I said, that's how I found out about EvolveU. Yeah. So I said, well, yeah, I'll apply for it. You know? [00:06:34] Al Del Degan: That's great. So when you were in the, the InceptionU evolve program, what, what sort of, I mean, with, I actually either didn't know or forgot that you had a computer science background, but you must have, you know, the, the, the knowledge from the past must have came back fairly quickly. even though the technology itself was probably fairly new compared to what you did in the past. How did you, how did you feel when you were first in, at the beginning of the program? [00:07:01] Navin Jetha: Actually now that is completely opposite. And I, you know, what I, what I discovered. That I had a lot of fear coming back to computer science or, you know, a developer, especially developer. I'll be honest with you, especially developer because, I struggled going through school. I struggle getting that degree and I remember we sat there for hours and hours programming and I wasn't alone. We were in a team together. We work together. Yet I remember those days. And, it was challenging. It was, I found it very, very challenging. And when I look back, I realize it's just the way my brain works. I'm not very detailed oriented, but then when I came back to EvolveU and I gave it another shot, I said, well, you know, I'm sitting here anyways. The summer's going to pass. Whether I take the program or not. And I, I found the courage to start again and I said, I'm going to give it a shot. This has, this has entered my life. Am I going to walk through this? Am I going to walk through the door or not? And I can do too much thinking about it, even though I'm an over-thinker, I didn't think too much about it. And I walked through the door and all my fears came back. Right. Because I had all this fears. programming and developing. And I have these fears that I can't do it and my confidence, it was my confidence. And, well, you know, by project two, I actually felt like I can do this by project two. I could, I, I can actually say I can build a MERN stack. I was able to say that and,by project three, I really enjoyed the process, the agile methodology, you know in project three, we came every morning, spend like 15 minutes a day and we had this task to complete from the night before and it was done. It was actually done. And I'm like, when I first took the task, I would take off in the morning at 9:15, I would say, okay, I'm going to take this task on. In my mind is going off saying, well, how are you going to do this task? [00:09:22] Navin Jetha: You have no clue how to do it? But there was a part of me that said, I'm just going to take it and do it anyways. You know? And then I would go away and ask for help, find somebody to help me. there were a lot of help out there in the cohort six and there were some cohort five, help. So I would look for help. I didn't give up and I'd found by next morning I had the solution. I had some things done and I felt so good. I love the process because I felt like it was getting things done. my confidence was going up and I was starting to believe that I can actually be a developer again. So I kind of feel like I got a second chance at it. and at the end, as we were completing the program, as we're coming to the end of it, I was again, in a bit of a dilemma, wondering, do I want to continue with development? Do I not want to continue with development? And, the reason that was happening in my mind was because I have such a strong passion for yoga and for fitness and for helping people and making an impact in the world. [00:10:30] Navin Jetha: And I couldn't in that moment, in my mind, figuring out how I was going to do that with development. You know, I didn't know how to bring all the skills that I have learned and integrate it with tech in some way. Right. So I, I have decided I am starting a business and I am want to help. People with fitness, you know, help people with, their back pain, their posture, alignment, you know, maybe mini exercises that you need to do while you're a developer, you know, developing for 20 hours. Because when I was sitting in EvolveU we would sit for so long developing. And I, and I realized I'm not used to that. I was constantly moving as a fitness leader, and now sitting here behind a computer in classes, developing too much sitting, you know, and my body was like, you're sitting for too long and I would have to take these little mini breaks. And maybe there was some heel raises or something by the microwave while my T's warming up or something, you know? And I'm like, okay, I should put this somewhere in a, in a, in a course, you know, and put it out there because I really believe that, whenever career we choose. Whatever path we choose in our lives. Our health will always have to be taken care of. Our bodies are always going to have to be taken care of. so I, I want to continue building my business as a side hustle. And at the same time, I would like to find a position in tech somewhere because I have more confidence now that I can do. after having gone through the EvolveU program and after having you wonderful facilitators, you know, rooting for us and saying, yeah, you can do this. You know, and I think it's finally, I'm thinking in my brain that I can actually do this. [00:12:31] Al Del Degan: That's cool. And you can probably take that one step further. And the, as, as you have the side hustle going anyways, the job you look for, you might be able to find something in a company that actually builds technology for fitness related, applications. So that could be a kind of a really neat, merger of your background and your, and your new ideas. But that's, that's really, really fascinating. And, and I, and I like that. Out of the course, not only did you, did you get some education, but you also were able to sort of build some confidence. That's really telling that that's a lot of people don't realize that it's not just a tech course, that there's other, other aspects to it in ways of unlearning and ways of, of, you know, understanding information in a different way. creative thinking, systems, thinking all those sorts of things. And then you take, the LifePath series to look into. Yourself. And I I've heard so many of the learners from the past cohorts say how some of those non-tech pieces were where some of the most important pieces in the, in the program. Do you want to speak to that a little bit? [00:13:36] Navin Jetha: Yeah, absolutely. Like, I mean, oh, there's so much to say there, like it's not just tech, tech is just one part of it. I think a bigger portion of it is the,essential skills portion. Where we learned a lot about mindset and unlearning and like you say, creative thinking, systems learning and, yeah. [00:14:01] Al Del Degan: Well do you think. You know, going forward, you had kind of mentioned that. Well, actually I think it may be was before we actually started recording, but you had mentioned something about you like working with people a lot. And so your, your career aspiration might include something along the lines of some sort of support position in tech. And that that's one of the other things that, that that's really cool is as a human being, you build all these skills over the years. Those skills can be applied in so many different ways. And a lot of people get stuck on positions in companies and it's like, okay, well, there's a product manager and project manager. I always get the two mixed up. And then you have, you know, business analysts, then you have software developer and then you have a QA engineer or whatever. there's also. Titles out there, but yet, if you look at what skillsets people have, they actually could easily transfer to a totally different, you know, area that they perhaps have never had the job title of, but they ended up excelling in that position because they have the skills and experience to make that position really successful. And I suspect you're in that kind of a situation where, you know, you may not want to be at a keyboard writing code each day, but you do love being there. And you've already said you liked the teaching side of things and you, and you like to work, you do like technology, but you also like health and stuff. And I could tell you, you know, in our industry, in the, in the technology kind of industry there's so many people sitting at desks all the time and, being able to have, you know, small little sort of activities that they can do to make sure that they keep the blood flowing and the joints lubricated while they're in, in that all the sitting at a desk situation that could be really valuable for people. [00:15:51] Navin Jetha: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. there are so many opportunities out there, you know, with my job searching. I'm realizing there is then the opportunities are actually endless and our mindset, what ends up happening? What I'm realizing about me is I it's like I get stuck in this mindset thinking, oh, that's all that's available. But really when I opened my mind up a little bit more, even just a little bit more, it doesn't have to be that much. I realized there are endless opportunities and. So, yeah. Sometimes I'm looking at these jobs and I go, yeah, I can do all these jobs, you know? And do I apply for all these jobs and yeah, I do want to talk to a customer or don't want to talk to somebody while I'm doing my job. I really honestly don't want to sit behind a computer, having to code all day. I don't think that. Be good for my soul because I need to see people and I need to be around people, but there are so many endless opportunities where I can take a little bit of technical portion of technical that I have learned and bring it into another position. So, yeah, you're right. A title of a job. It doesn't say too much about what I will be doing if I apply for a job. And so we must keep our minds open to what we're applying for. And, and, you might be doing a little bit of tech and maybe doing some business work or talking to people more, but tech is here in every area of life, you know? So I think just getting any kind of technical education. is, is valuable right now at this point, because right now the, way Calgary's changing, forget the world, but Calgary's changing right now. I'm hearing that it is the Silicon valley of Canada. So, you know, you might as well get some tech education because every job that I've applied for so far, even if I'm not looking for a tech job, they require some technical skills. So I'm just keeping an open mind as to, what kind of position, that I will land I'm being open-minded it will be my first junior tech position after so many years of being away. I consider myself going back to junior level and I'm okay with that. I know we're okay with that. And I'm okay to start, at that point. yeah. And. yeah, just keeping an open mind, I think is very, very important when you're job searching. [00:18:28] Al Del Degan: Cool. So if a potential employer just happened to be listening to this podcast and listening to you talk what's what sort of thing would you like them to know about, well, you specifically, but also about the people that have taken these, you know, we call them bootcamp programs, kind of, what sort of message would you like to pass along to them? I would like to let them know that the people who finished the EvolveU program are very, very capable of learning and getting the work done because we have been trained to get the work done. I mean, we've been trained to get the work done the next day. We use the Trello system. We use the agile methodology. We have the EvolveU program has taught us so much more than just technology. We have learned the business process. We have learned the technology. I can't imagine the person who is not graduated from EvolveU. I can't imagine that person not being able to. Do well in any company that they get hired in, right? [00:19:45] Navin Jetha: Because they have the background, they have the knowledge, they have the skills, they have the support. [00:19:52] Al Del Degan: That's a that's actually, that's actually a really good. Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good point. one of the things that you had said there about the support every time, a new cohort of learners graduates from the program, they don't just disappear off the face of the earth. They usually hang around and help the next cohort and they end up, we have an alumni process where people can stay together and get to know other people from the other cohorts. And so there's that sort of, you have sort of an instant network and an instant support framework for,your future career. What would you like to tell someone who's kind of on the fence? Not really sure if going down the bootcamp road is, a good idea or not. What would you say to them? [00:20:38] Navin Jetha: I would say go for it. I would totally say go for it because even if you feel like you've never done any tech before, or you're sitting on the fence and your mind is telling you. Things, you know, listen to your gut feeling because listen to your guts because you've got will not lie to you. And most likely it's going to say, go for it because the world is changing. Technology is everywhere. It's in every part of life now. So taking a course like this, a bootcamp course is invaluable at this point, at this stage in, the development of the world anywhere you would be totally an asset to any resume. [00:21:27] Al Del Degan: Excellent. I like it. ha ha ha ha [00:21:29] Navin Jetha: Don't you believe that Al? [00:21:33] Al Del Degan: Totally do absolutely. 100%. you know, there's a sort of two camps. There's, there's people who say no to everything and then they feel like they're, they're getting their life back because they're not, not always, you know, in the middle of something all the time. And then there's the other side of the people where they feel like their life has changed so much by saying yes to everything. I mean, that's a little extreme. I mean, obviously there's a happy middle, but I think people should take on challenges and things that scare them. I think they should say yes more often than, they say no . You have more regrets for things that you didn't do than the things that you did do. so, you know, always sitting around wishing you would have done something is a horrible way to live your life. So sometimes you should just give it a shot and go for it. Like you said, go for it. [00:22:18] Navin Jetha: I would totally say go forward because otherwise you will live in your comfort zone and. To know that you are not in your comfort zone is to actually go out there, take a risk, put yourself out there. And that's one of the things I learned from the EvolveU program is to take a risk, is to put myself out there. And one of the things I really, really got was that not to be afraid to put myself out there, it doesn't matter whether I'm going to do a tech field or not a tech field. But just to get one thing just to even have gotten one thing. And if that was, if I only got one thing out of EvolveU and if it was, don't be afraid to put yourself out there, that would be enough to have taken that program if I got nothing else out of it, but I got so much more than that. So I am so glad I said yes. [00:23:18] Al Del Degan: That's great. I love that. Well, I, on that, I think that's an absolutely perfect note to, to end the show. And, I would really, really like to say, thank you so much for taking the time to be here. I wish you all the best and anybody. Who's, who's looking to hire somebody in the, you know, to, in a technical person that can be involved with customers and has the kind of background and energy that you have. I think they, they should totally be contacting you. And on that note, we will have your LinkedIn profile in the show notes and in case anyone does want to talk to you and, yeah. Thanks for being here. [00:23:56] Navin Jetha: It was fun. It was fun. [00:23:59] Al Del Degan: Of course it was always is. [00:24:00] Navin Jetha: Thank you. [00:24:01] Al Del Degan: Have a wonderful day. Peter Beaudoin Hosts Tamara Loiselle
If you would like to listen to this episode, visit: https://www.rainforestab.ca/podcast.html [00:00:00] Peter Beaudoin: Thanks Al. Hi, my name is Peter Beaudoin and I'll be your host of today's rainforest podcast. Today's guest is Tamara Loiselle she's the CEO and founder of Synergraze, a Calgary based company operating in the ag space. So welcome to Tamara. [00:00:12] Tamara Loiselle: Thank you, Peter, for having me. [00:00:14] Peter Beaudoin: So it's really great to have you here. I know that we've. Sorta we met actually prior to, to COVID and I think we've been trying to connect and get online for a while. So it's really good to have you here. So we'll just start off, I mean, tell us a little bit about Synergraze and, and what problem are you trying to solve? We are working to reduce greenhouse gas emissions from cattle, as a by-product of their digestion cattle belch methane, which is about 25 times more potent as a greenhouse trapping gas than is carbon dioxide. [00:00:42] Tamara Loiselle: And cattle produce the equivalent carbon emission. As the entire global transportation sector, the same as every car, truck, train, plane, and ship on the planet combined each year. So we are focusing on creating a cattle feed additive that is capable of reducing methane emissions from cattle by approximately 90%. [00:01:04] Peter Beaudoin: That's great. So what is it? So what, is the actual product. [00:01:07] Tamara Loiselle: Ya, so its a natural product, which is very exciting. So it's a natural algae based product and, of the 4.9 million head of cattle here in Alberta having just 20% of them on this additive would reduce carbon emissions equivalent to taking a million cars off the road each year. [00:01:25] Peter Beaudoin: Okay. So, so when we talk about it's an algae base, so where where's it actually coming from? Cause that's, I think is a really intriguing thing about the technology. Where do you source the algae from? [00:01:34] Tamara Loiselle: So we are actually building a production facility here in Canada and we are. Tank cultivating the algae ourselves. So it originally obviously comes from the ocean and as a Marine species, but we are tank cultivating and processing then getting to cattle producers here in Canada. [00:01:56] Peter Beaudoin: So just want to explore that a bit. So in terms of cattle feed, You know, a dairy cow. I mean, I don't know the exact number, but can eat 20, 25 kilograms of, of sort of a feed a day. What's the feed. How does it actually work? What are you actually doing to, to add this to their food? What does it look like? [00:02:12] Tamara Loiselle: The best analogy is a supplement pill or a little powder that we're just sprinkling into their food. It's less than 1% of their daily diet. Is this algae based. So it just gets mixed in. So if you're at a feedlot, it's just getting mixed into they're daily ration by weight and they just eat their food the way they normally would. So there's no change in their feeding protocol. [00:02:40] Peter Beaudoin: So let me, let me ask you about a little bit of the business drivers. Cause I know that like in markets like California, they've mandated sort of a 40% reduction in emissions from livestock. Right? So by I think by whatever 24. You know, in California has some of the largest dairy herds in, in north America, but w w what's happening in Canada and the rest of the world with regards to sort of methane reduction. What's the, you know, where, where are we going? [00:03:04] Tamara Loiselle: Well, you mentioned California, which is interesting because it is the very first jurisdiction on the planet to mandate methane emission reductions in cattle, those new legislative requirements kick in beginning in 2024. And there's a lot of cattle producers in California that are really scrambling and desperately searching for solutions because a 40% reduction it is big and there's not a lot of solutions out there that can offer that. So a lot of them are spending millions. Anaerobic digesters to, reduce the methane from the manure piles, where our solution is going to be a fraction of the cost and far more effective if you're getting up to a 90%. So in Canada, we don't have any legislation driving reductions, but we do have incentives, around, particularly in Alberta, around a carbon credit protocol for the reduction of methane in cattle. So it's a voluntary protocol so that exists and other jurisdictions within Canada, other provinces, as well as the federal governments are also closely examining having such similar protocols in their arsenal, which I think will definitely drive and insent methane reductions in cattle production facilities. [00:04:19] Peter Beaudoin: Great. So obviously it's a, it's a great solution. So I wanted to talk a little bit about your sort of entrepreneur journey and it's interesting. Cause like I said, we had met at. You were pitching, I think it was the foresight event. You reminded me. It was 2019. I thought it was 2020, but you know, it's that long ago, it's a year and a half ago, longer than that. And when we, you know, when we met, you had pitched and you went out and all of a sudden COVID hits. So what's happened in the year and a half since, since you came out of the Cleantech accelerator. [00:04:45] Tamara Loiselle: And that was a wonderful experience, actually, that. Foresight platform. Calgary clean tech accelerator was great to really get me focused and thinking about things we could be doing as a, as a company. And then you're right. COVID hit. And I really focused our efforts on raising funds, developing our, get to market plan. And, during that period of time, we did apply for the era emission reduction, Alberta. They had a challenge in food, farming and forest, and we were a successful applicants in that. So yeah, we really focused on raising money and getting our plans together. And now we're off to the races and building a facility. [00:05:27] Peter Beaudoin: That's great. And I wanted to talk a little bit about that. You know, you say you one and I know how much blood, sweat, and tears you goes into this size of application. But just to be clear, I mean, from what was posted on the ERA website, you, you were awarded $5 million on a 20 potential $20 million project. [00:05:44] Tamara Loiselle: Right? So firstly, congratulations. Okay. Sorry. $15 million project. So. and that's, that's huge. Right? So, so, and congratulations on that. Cause I know how hard it is to apply for those and, and, and to be successful. So can you tell me a little bit about, so, so what, what is this, the, the Cadillac natives project and what impact will this have on your business? Well, our, our, I mean, our entire company is focused on this cattle additive. So as I mentioned before, is algae based feed additive. You know, the impact of the era grant greatly accelerates our. Timeline to market and really got things going for us in terms of, you know, provide, you know, other potential investors, making the decision to, to get in. And, like I said, it really enabled our pathway to. commercialization and we have a three-year project outline that we'll have a first, first level commercial scale production facility that we'll be producing about 460 tons per year. Dry weight of our food additive getting to market. [00:06:44] Peter Beaudoin: So, so th th that's great. So if I understand correctly, I mean, the funding will be used to build the first of its kinds facility to actually grow and produce the algae. And so for, and you said 460 tons a year, dry weight. So I mean, how much, how many, you know, is this enough for the Alberta market, the Canadian market? How big is that? you know, at the end of three years, when you get to commercialization, what does that mean? [00:07:04] Tamara Loiselle: So that 460 tons a year will feed enough cattle to result in a 78,000 tons per year reduction in carbon dioxide equivalent, from cattle and feed lots. [00:07:18] Peter Beaudoin: That's great. That's great. So, I mean, is the plan then, I mean, if this is successful, then you actually grow more facilities or you, you then sort of scale, correct. This is really the you're proving the ability to scale this technology. [00:07:30] Tamara Loiselle: Exactly. So then we would scale up from there and also increase the number of size of the facilities. And work on our formulations. There is active ingredients, so we can also be looking at increasing the concentrations of active ingredients. So there's a number of fronts we're looking at to yeah. For expansion. [00:07:46] Peter Beaudoin: Great. That's great. So, and, and it's a three-year project then on your, where are you building the facility? [00:07:51] Tamara Loiselle: So we, we have activities in both BC and Alberta. And, our focus for our market or commercial rollout market is here in Alberta. And like I said, we are a, we are an Alberta based company, but we do need,actual free oceans. So we do have, some facilities out in BC as well. [00:08:09] Peter Beaudoin: Tell me a little bit about that cause I am interested. I mean, you know, you say you, you, you harvest it from, is it you're harvesting it from the ocean and then you're growing it at the facility, is that correct? [00:08:19] Tamara Loiselle: So we have seed stock. That's been sourced and everything pretty much happens on, on tanks in the facility. [00:08:27] Peter Beaudoin: Oh, so you don't have to go back. It's not a continuous thing. You, you can sort of get it and grow from it. Wow. Okay. Okay. Well, let, let's talk a little bit about your, your sort of personal journey. I'm interested to know a little bit, I mean, you're now, because again, when we met you as a year and a half ago, I know the CEO is sometimes a lonely job, right? So what what's, what's the biggest challenge, I guess, about being a CEO, you know, especially during COVID, I mean, what has been your biggest challenges, [00:08:52] Tamara Loiselle: Biggest challenges. Well honestly its been pretty exciting. I've been pretty invested in this project for, for a number of years. So as things started to get moving, it's just been, it's been pretty exhilarating. So, you know, it's been a wonderful journey actually. And then putting together a team and, you know, having a team that everybody works well together. And is, is running on all cylinders is it's all been really quite exciting, you know, because there was a couple of years to get things funded. And that was really the biggest challenge. Once that fell into place. Everything else has just been running on, on, on full tilt. [00:09:32] Peter Beaudoin: So how many staff do you have now tomorrow? [00:09:34] Tamara Loiselle: There's about, there's six of us right now and there's kind of a core group. We will be expanding that as well, actually, probably within the next month or two, we will be looking for more folks, but yeah, it really went from one to six. [00:09:50] Peter Beaudoin: It's interesting. I mean, I am, you know, cause you said you've been working on this for a few years, so. Where like, can you tell me a little bit about sort of, how did this start? Cause, I mean, I met you already in your journey when you were at the foresight accelerator, where did it start? I mean, you've been at this a few years. Can you tell us a little bit more about where to originated? [00:10:09] Tamara Loiselle: So my background's environmental science within the faculty of agriculture at university of Alberta. So I always had this interest. I come from a ranching family, so I always had this interest in environmental science, but also connected to agriculture and other things. I spent a number of years working with indigenous communities on, on environmental training and community capacity building had come across some research by actually a Canadian researcher who did it, who had his initial discovery. So Dr. Rob Kinley here in Canada, while he was at Dalhousie university and had, published some work around the connection between algae and seaweeds and methane reduction. And there's lots of algaes that will have a small impact on methane reduction in cattle, approximately, you know, say around 15% or so, but then he discovered, one particular species that had a, he was testing in vitro at that time that had a 99% reduction. And that's what really kicked off this whole area. And. Really a lot of excitement because, because there's so much carbon dioxide, equivalent, greenhouse gases that come from the cattle production sector, there is, there's really a lot of people around the planet, investing resources and time and energy into this. So once he made that discovery, it definitely fueled, development. It is a species that nobody has ever commercially grown before. So there are technical and scientific challenges to be. Developing and growing this. And so I had just reached out, after reading the research and the saying, Hey, I'll be really interested in commercializing this over here in Canada and kept that relationship going. And, now here it is five years later and we're finally building a production facility [00:12:00] Peter Beaudoin: So five years. Yeah. So we always hear of overnight successes, but usually it is five years. So, you know, it does take a while, like, so I can appreciate that. So I guess is, you know, again, five years you've gone through, I know the, like we said, the foresight accelerator, and now you've won the ERA funding. If you were going to look back and go, Hey, if I did it again, you know, what would you do differently? [00:12:20] Tamara Loiselle: Well, honestly, I don't think, I, I think everything like the timing just really fell into place for everything. So I'm not sure there's anything I could've done differently. I mean, getting also involved with the clean tech accelerator was, was a huge benefit. Maybe that'd be one thing if I, you know, give suggestions to other people that are in startups, I like getting involved with that type of a accelerator and support was something that was very beneficial. [00:12:45] Peter Beaudoin: But let's explore that. I mean, because did you find that or were you recommended to go into that? How did you, you know, firstly, how did you find the foresight accelerator? [00:12:53] Tamara Loiselle: You know what I was at the, the technology awards event at SAIT just meeting people and actually I, and I, and this is horrible. I can't even remember the name of the woman, but I was just, just somebody I had met there that evening. a lady was telling me what I do and she's like, oh, do you know about the foresight accelerator? And. Made some introductions and I, applied immediately and, ya it was accepted and it was the first time the foresight and platform had done a clean tech program. And, yeah, it was, it was a really good,experience and connecting with others CEOs of startups in a similar space [00:13:29] Peter Beaudoin: challenges. Yeah. Yeah. So are you still in contact with some of them? Are you still working, I guess, with the foresight accelerator or how does that, how has that evolved after you've sort of completed the program? [00:13:40] Tamara Loiselle: Yeah, so I'm still connected, with, folks from that program and the, and the foresight itself and, yes. Actually I had a couple of communications yesterday with one of the other fellow CEOs from that program. [00:13:53] Peter Beaudoin: So it's been great. Well, that's good. That's good. So I guess is I did want to ask you, are you looking for investors? Right? Cause I know that after coming out, when I met you a year ago, you were, but now you've got this great project with ERA. So where are you on that front? [00:14:06] Tamara Loiselle: So we, we have, successfully raised dollars and we're fully funded for the next 18 months or so, and then we'll be looking for investors after that, for that time period going forward. And so, yeah, always happy to chat with interested potential investors and, we'll be definitely making, an effort, to be bringing in more investment to in that 18 month window. [00:14:29] Peter Beaudoin: So can I ask, I mean, looking forward, I mean, you know where, you know, if you want to say. Cause obviously in three years, you're looking to have the facility built and starting to scale. So if we look forward in five years, I mean, where do you want to be with this? [00:14:42] Tamara Loiselle: oh, in five years, I would really like to see good chunk of north America's cattle. On an additive, such as Synergraze . Yeah. So, like I said, I mean just 20% in just our province alone is the equivalent of reducing, you know, taking a million cars off the road. So if we could have 40% or even more, or if it became industry standard practice to have a, an additive such as this, that can reduce. 90% of our methane emissions, that really goes a long way to making a significant dent in the greenhouse gas emissions from the cattle production sector, and mitigating the environmental footprint overall of the sector. [00:15:25] Peter Beaudoin: That's great. That's great. So, if listeners want to know more, what should they do? [00:15:29] Tamara Loiselle: Well, they can check out our website at synergraze.com and you can also reach out to me on LinkedIn. [00:15:36] Peter Beaudoin: Great. Well, thanks for your time today Tamara. I know it's been a while since we've been trying to talk, so it was great to chat today, so thank you. [00:15:42] Tamara Loiselle: Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure. [00:15:44] Peter Beaudoin: And for the listeners, I want to say, thanks for listening. Have a great day. |
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